Isolde Brielmaier:

I guess maybe most people say this about their city, but New York City, there is something, particularly in those periods, right, the 70s, which you and I are, were too young to be here. But the 80s and the 90s - 

Tamu McPherson:

Incredible.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Incredible. And just the transformation of the… or if you think from a cultural standpoint, think fashion, think art, what was happening in the 80s? Explosive. Explosive. And what came out of that in terms of the art, in terms of fashion, in terms of design. And then the 90s, think about music. I mean, hip hop into the 80s, 90s, the club scene.

Tamu McPherson:

I mean untouchable. Unparallelled. I read an interesting article, and I say it all the time and I think it was Rolling Stone and they refer to hip hop and hip hop culture as the lingua franca of culture. And when I was growing up, you could totally get arrested for wearing any of the attire that was associated with the music. And if you were into the culture, you were definitely made to feel like you were not mainstream. 

Isolde Brielmaier:

Yeah, it felt sort of renegade back then. It hadn't hit the commercial level. It hadn't been subsumed by the commercial aspect of it. 

I started coming to New York in my early teens to do dance summer intensives. And I would come with one or two other friends and we would stay in an apartment by ourselves, but there would always be an adult connected to one of our families that would come and check up on us. But it was New York City, so just raw and everything was out on the surface. All the creativity and the mess and the spark, and it was just incredible, so magical. And there's a nostalgia for it. Obviously life wasn't perfect for everybody. And then the music scene when I came out - so I came out at 18 for college and I hit right at the end of the kind of 80s, 90s club scene and the music scene. So I remember KRS-One, Tribe called Quest - 

Tamu McPherson:

 - that amazing conscious hip hop - 

Isolde Brielmaier:

Exactly.

Tamu McPherson:

I always say, as raw as it was, we're here and we're alive and we're safe. And that was a rough time. But I felt safe as a teenager taking the Coach bus in from Nyack, New York, to 42nd Street and just walking around. My place was the West Village. I loved the West Village. And I had enough money to have a slice of pizza. And then just, if I had gotten paid for my part-time job, I would buy a pair of vintage jeans.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Remember on Broadway here, Antique Boutique, right? And Canal Jean Company. I think I still have some of the buttons. Those little buttons like in bright neon. 

Tamu McPherson:

Good times. 

Isolde Brielmaier:

Really amazing. And it was an incredible place for me as a creative, as a dancer. Because everything was just so free flowing. We used to hang out in these groups of dancers. You can think of Fame, remember the movie Fame? That's sort of what it felt like. I started at School of American Ballet, but we would take classes at Alvin Ailey, we would go to Steps there, all these funky studios. And you followed different teachers, well-known teachers. And then you would hang out in the park or in the West Village and someone would decide to just bust out on the street with studying. It was just magical.

Tamu McPherson:

And so you were taking that energy in already, and it was already in your psyche, it was already in your bank of references. And so then you danced professionally and then your interest in art sparked. And then you became an expert in art - you did your PhD in art, and then you became a curator, a director. And then today you are in leadership at the New Museum. Meanwhile you've done grand exhibitions all over the world and did spectacular programming for iconic centers. And then you did the Peninsula Project in Hong Kong. How do you feel today? What is exciting when it comes to what art is communicating to the public? How do you feel about this moment and the communication that's taking place?

Isolde Brielmaier:

It's so funny cuz we started going back in time through my dance history and my love of New York and just generally cities around the world, I think it is really tied to my interest in contemporary art because I love being around artists, being around creatives. I really believe artists live in and see the world differently and they move through the world differently. They're always looking at things like a menu. So they're just calling and pulling ideas from everything around them. And that really resonates for me I think as a former dancer. So you and I just started in the 80s, then you go to the 90s and one of the biggest things right now that really strikes me is, I mean we're in this really historical critical moment.

And I think for our parents or grandparents, they can probably look back and sort of say a similar thing. That there was a particular moment for our parents, it may have been the 60s or your family, you have family in Jamaica, family in East Africa, the 60s. Not only in terms of civil rights but also the post-colonial moment. And for me in these last couple years, and I have always gravitated towards artists and work that really is conceptual and has something to say - beauty is amazing and aesthetics obviously that's sort of what pulls you in. But I am really interested in artists who see themselves as part of the world and who just use their art either consciously or subconsciously to comment, engage and challenge some of the social, political, economic issues that we're dealing with. And so for me, generally those artists have tended to be artists who have been historically excluded, Black artists, LGBTQIA+ artists, Asian artists, women.

So if you pull all of that into this moment… I feel almost a little hesitant to say we're coming out of a pandemic. I mean maybe the world is at different stages with it, and depending on where you are socioeconomically, you are also at different stages with it. But I think between the pandemic in this particular country, thinking about the murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter thinking about the rise in Asian hate and crimes towards Asians, the New Museum is down here on the Bowery and we're very much linked to Chinatown and many of those communities. So that's been very top of mind. So when you think about that and then you look at the art world, and specifically in New York, it's kind of unprecedented what we're seeing right now. There are more Black artists, artists of color that I think are more visible at this moment. More artists represented by galleries, more of these artists having exhibitions Right now we have an incredible exhibition up at the museum by a 91-year old Harlem born artist, Faith Ringold, who is a legend. 

Tamu McPherson:

She's epic.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Prolific. This woman has been creating arts since the 1960s. She's amazing. She showed up at the opening with, I don't know if they were limited edition, but these sequin UGGs and everyone was just like, where did this woman get these boots? But it's really unprecedented, and I do feel that there is a shift. So that's sort of what we see. But I think for me, as deputy director at the museum, someone who's in leadership, I also think that we're seeing shifts behind the scenes and that's really where the lasting change comes. Sometimes we can talk about window dressing or we can talk about a company, and I know you probably think about this even in fashion, that kind of gives ‘good face’. But then you and I want to know, well what does your boardroom look like? Yes. How many women are on the board?

How many people of color are on the board? But I think we're starting to see some of those big shifts in the art world in places of power and in places where decisions are being made. And so for me that's really exciting. But I'm always hesitant to rest on our laurels or pat ourselves on the back cuz there's always work to be done. And I have a daughter, you have a son, we have friends that have other children, younger children. And that work to be done is not only for us, but more importantly for them.

Tamu McPherson:

We talk about this a lot because we talk about how we can continue the work and continue to move forward. And I feel that a lot of the people that I've spoken to, they understand and they realize that while we make this progress, while the seeds are planted and maybe they're under the surface of the soil, we still can't rest because we have to usher the flowers, we have to usher them out of the soil. And that's gonna take a long time and it's gonna take a lot of monitoring, it's gonna take a lot of tending, too. And so I'm happy to see that a lot of our generation and a lot of the thought-makers and leaders globally are thinking in the same way, that they're not satisfied with the gains that we've made thus far. That they have a long gain, they have a long vision. So that's wonderful. 

I've been listening to your story and how you have made it this far to being in leadership. And I wanna talk about your process and I want to know: what are the fundamentals that you may have gained through your family, through your past experience, through your ancestors that lead you in the decisions that you make, that lead you to see the world in which you see it?

Isolde Brielmaier:

Friends and family to me are everything. I come from two immigrant parents and I have a younger brother who's probably twice my size at this point, but I still think of him as my baby brother. And so I grew up in a family we did not have a lot, but we enough my parents were incredibly hard-working both of them, very, very hard working and really instilled in us that work ethic and the idea that there's no work that's beneath you. So I remember very distinctly at one point, even when my father had just finished college, we needed extra money. So he worked at a 7/11, or it was called Stop-and-Go, for two years, two or three nights a week, with a college degree. But it was about putting food on the table and making sure that we got the swim lessons and the soccer and the tutoring or whatever it is that we wanted.

They were very political. So I remember probably when I was about 6 or 7 and I was with my mother and my brother and we were in a park and it was the first time I had seen someone who was unsheltered. And I like that word as opposed to ‘homeless’, because it puts the onus on the system when we say ‘unsheltered’. And my brother and I kept staring and my mother turned to us and she said, Zelda child. And it could have been somebody's mother, it could have been, it was a woman, but it just humanized things. And the reason I like that story is because compassion was incredibly important and empathy, I think for my parents and my family, to not judge people.

So all of those qualities, I bring them up because I feel like I really value them and I try to live them. And when I think about how I try to engage with people, I always try to keep those values top of mind. And even, fast-forward to now, in terms of leading and leadership, I'm really, really interested in leadership, and thinking about in particular how women lead and can lead and what it means. Not necessarily to be a leader now, but a leader for the future. And I think as cheesy as it sounds, I really think that you can lead with love and joy. It doesn't always…

Tamu McPherson:

You're with the wrong person. I have hearts in my eyes all day long.

Isolde Brielmaier:

No, me too. I think I know, which is why there's a sort of kindred spirit element with you and me. I think you can lead and live with joy and love. It doesn't have to be with an iron fist. Laughter is incredibly important. I'm one of those folks where I'll hold a meeting at the museum and I think they're fabulous jokes. Some people may think they're corny, but we spend a lot of our time working. So if you don't have some joy while you're doing it, we're in big trouble. I’m really interested in people. I mean really at the end of the day it's people over projects, and people over profits. Because if you don't take care of people and see people and value them and empower them and give them a platform that you can partner with them on to do what they do at their very best, your results are never gonna be what they are.

But I really believe that when you take care of people, whatever it is that they're doing or creating or wanting to put out in the world, I think will be that much better. So I sort of tie where I am right now very much to my upbringing, where the words I used to hear constantly were of empathy, compassion, humility. So when you had success, it was celebrated, but it didn't need to be celebrated for months and months in my household. The element of humility was really important. And kindness, all of those things, those are just so important to me. As a parent, I try to instill those values in my daughter, looking at people with kindness and being humble and recognizing that unless you've walked in somebody's shoes, you will never know how they feel or what they've experienced.

Tamu McPherson:

Those principles are so grounded, and they ground you in leading your life. And I feel very strongly that we're here and we're so blessed to be here and we're all connected in such a profound way, , that if we are not contributing something positive to our time here, then we're not really fulfilling our purpose. Now I don't know what my end purpose is, I'm on that journey, but I just kind of feel like it would be useless not to be in this world in that way. And I really adore that you think about your leadership and you think about the work that you're doing in the future and it's the world that you wanna see so that you are already working and imagining that world, and you're already laying the foundation that's gonna be needed to achieve what Farrah needs. What our friend Anja's Matilda needs, what my son needs. And I think that is a way of saying that we're here today, but what we're leaving is definitely gonna be better. 

Isolde Brielmaier:

So interesting you talked about the seeds and how you usher the plants or the flowers into the world, but then there's that element of who's sustaining them. When they come into the world, what are we doing? What are we putting out in the universe? What systems, for lack of a better term, are we putting in place to sustain them? And that's really about the future. So for example, when we think about how we're working now, so many of us are hybrid or we're not going to the office, which I love. I mean I actually go into the museum about twice a week and then I can work from home or wherever I need to be. I really enjoy this flexibility. But thinking about future generations, so thinking about your son or my daughter or our friend Anja's daughter, how are they going to work? Because it's not going, I can just say having taught 18 to 22 year olds as a professor at NYU, they are not about the grind in the same way that we are.

Probably even more so the generation before that to us. So the grind, this is a very Millennial, maybe even Gen Z idea that it's less about just grinding, going to work and just putting in the hours and not leaving before your boss leaves and everything else goes by the wayside. And I think it's about, in a way, working smarter and prioritizing self and self care. I'm always so blown away, especially by young people your son's age and a little bit older in terms of how they're very much learning how to prioritize themselves as human beings. And it doesn't even phase them that, And some people find it maybe problematic but that they would leave before you their boss cuz they have to get to a SoulCycle class or that's them sort of prioritizing their wellbeing. So it's working differently now, but I also think in the future it's going to look very, very different, because it's important.

Tamu McPherson:

I've spoken to a lot of friends who are in our generation or who are peers, and we talk about this very often and we want to be fair, I mean I come from a background where that didn't exist even to just pay off my student loans. I used to work 8 to 1 and repeat, seven days a week. And that's what I had to do. And obviously I'm an immigrant and my mother is an immigrant and the grind, that was a different kind of grind. I worked 8 to 1, but she worked maybe 8 to 8, regularly.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Or had two jobs.

Tamu McPherson:

And the things that this generation requires now are very different from what I am familiar with, and I'm that far away from them. But wanting to be fair, wanting not to fall into a space where you have to be like, well no, I'm your boss and I'm staying, you should stay with me. Wanting to be understanding. Wanting to be gracious, wanting to be all of those things, but wanting to also have boundaries that work for the business. What is a piece of advice you can give to us fellow leaders that are grappling with these issues? Or these situations? Let's just call it ‘situations’ cuz they're not like…

Isolde Brielmaier:

Yeah, no, I think ‘situations’ probably makes more sense. I do think that sometimes, for some of the younger generations, there's a disconnect or a lack of history to the point where what allows us to do what we did is also very much resting on the shoulders of giants, resting on the shoulders of our parents who actually did do, if you want to call it the grind, or whatever you want. I don't know if that’s what my dad was doing, but they worked all the time. And so I don't wanna poo that either. Actually, what allows me to be in part where I am today I think, and there's tons of articles, Tamu, floating around companies and leaders, oh my gosh, what do you do with these Gen Z folks and the millennials? And you listen.  When I came on board at the New Museum, I had one-on-ones my first six months. I did a lot of listening and observing, and I had one-on-ones with people to really just get a sense of who they are, how they saw their jobs.

Because it's very different when you read a job description versus when you sit and you talk with somebody about how they see their job, what the challenges are, what things they liked about their work. So the listening piece, and taking in that information, I think is really important. And then also not being so wedded to, but this is what we've been doing for 10 years. That's like my favorite thing when I say, maybe we should try the, Oh no, no, we've been doing, and this isn't even just at the museum, but it's just all in as humans, many of us ingrained, Oh no, no, we've been doing it this way for 10 years. And it's sort of like, well that's great. And everyone hears my little phrase, If you do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. So how about if we try something different?

And guess what? Good to know you have this thing that you've been doing for 10 years. So if the different thing doesn't work, we can go back to that. Change is hard and change management is hard anywhere. You could be on a set, it could be at a company, it could be at a sports team where someone comes in and just says, Hey, we're gonna try this new form of conditioning. And the athletes are like, What? That's not what we do in basketball. Or that's not being open to change. And figuring out ways to create points of entry to invite people into that change I think is really important and really hard. Yeah, I am finding out it's really, really hard. But I mean that's how we move forward

Tamu McPherson:

And that's it. Because change is inevitable. And we have to actually accept it to reduce the friction, because I'm personally not about the friction for a hundred percent long periods of time. No, I'll accept some friction, but we need to get past the friction so we can create.

Isolde Brielmaier:

And we don't want things to be exactly as they were. The whole point of humanity and being human beings is to evolve, and hopefully evolve for the better in a way that makes the world more beautiful and bigger and better for more people. So this idea of, I always say, well, no one wants to read a book with one chapter. You want to keep adding. I mean I guess maybe, or if you have the Cliffs Notes or something, but you wanna keep adding chapters to your story and that requires transition and change, which is really uncomfortable. But once you push through it's like, oh my gosh, it opens up a whole other story for you, which is so important.

Tamu McPherson:

So important. It makes me think of the discipline that you contributed the different chapters in your journey. You are an absolute luminary in the arts. You are a role model, you inspire so many people. And the art world itself, while it has progressed, is still very much so white-dominated field and even much more so male, white, male-dominated. And today, as you know, after this pandemic, we've lived through this pandemic, we've lived through the heartbreaking murder of George Floyd. So many promises were made by huge stakeholders in the art world. And where are you seeing those promises being delivered right now? Are you seeing them delivered? What's the most promising programs that are being implemented?

Isolde Brielmaier:

That's a really good question. I mean I think, for me, change is slow, but I think we're seeing it in terms of hiring. So I'm gonna be very New York-centric, although I am very global in my existence and thinking, but if you look at the New York museums and institutions, you're seeing more diverse hires, which is great. And most importantly, you're seeing more diverse hires at the leadership level, the executive level. And that's really important because those are the folks that are the gatekeepers and that make decisions. I have charged myself for anybody that I'm hiring just in my mind, and obviously I can't sort of make this proclamation in the hiring process, but I was put here for a reason. So I really believe that if it's in my power and I have incredibly qualified candidates who happen to be women or happen to be Black or Asian or what, I will give them very, very serious attention because I want our teams to look like the world and more specifically the city in which we live in New York City's 54% people of color.

We forget that we're actually not in the minority here in this city. So it's very important because museums exist, artists make work to be seen and to be out in the world. Museums exist as platforms for artists and that art. And so we really want as many different kinds of people coming through the doors and we really want to be able to engage with different communities. Everything from language, culture... I mean one of the first things I did when I came on board, I was like, Oh, I wonder what languages are spoken here. So we have Spanish. I was like, wow, this is interesting cuz we're so close to Chinatown, but we don't have anyone that speaks Chinese. I mean I have a tiny, tiny bit of Mandarin, enough to greet people so that they don't think I'm rude. But those are things that we wanna shift.

Because that's about community and audience. So I think there's a greater awareness of that. I think we are seeing hires, myself included, coming in and in higher level positions that can really have an impact, have the ability to make change. And then I think the biggest thing, and this is across the board, it's probably similar for you, Tamu, in fashion too, is systems have to change. It's not enough to bring in a Black woman and have her lead if the system was sort of set up predicated on her absence. So the system itself has to change, it has to stop existing in the way it was, which was primarily oriented towards white men. So that's a slower burn. Trying to make that kind of a change, a slower burn. But it starts again at the top level. What is your board, what do your boards look like, your board of trustees? So we've been working really hard at the New Museum. Other museums have been trying to really diversify their leadership as well. And then of course artists. But I think we're probably doing a bit better in terms of representation in artists.

Tamu McPherson:

What can we do as the public? I'm a member of the public. What can I do to maybe hold the industry accountable, for sustaining the promises that they've made and fulfilling ones that are yet to be made?

Isolde Brielmaier:

That's such a good question. I think, well, definitely come to museums, everybody! I mean, we're bouncing back. But culture in general took a huge hit. And not even just in New York, I mean in Rome and during the lockdown of the pandemic museums, other cultural institutions were not open, which means that they were not generating income, there were no tickets. And we have to remember, most museums, it's different I think in Europe, but the way we're funded here is as non-profits. So come visit, come see art, buy a ticket. And if it's a donation only even of a dollar or two. It really helps I think for the public, for you as the public being vocal about, if you like something to say, this show was really amazing and we'd love to see more exhibitions like this cuz they're always comment boxes. Or you can send an email for a suggestion, being vocal or saying, I had this kind of an experience at the museum and it was really uncomfortable.

And because we need to know that which we've had, we've had emails to that degree. If you speak another language and you come to a museum and it's hard to orient yourself cuz there's no one that speaks Arabic or Mandarin or let us know that - that's really important. Or say if you are hearing impaired, that's something in terms of issues around equity, diversity, but also accessibility. That's something now that's coming top of mind. Wow, this is a great exhibition. But if you're in a wheelchair, how would you even get in the door and maneuver around? Or you're watching the video on headsets, but if you can't hear, how do you enjoy this work of art? Do we think about signing?

So just being vocal, because these institutions are for you. This art is for all of you, letting us know what you like and also what you don't like.

Or what makes it uncomfortable is for me, somebody who's very oriented towards people and audiences, super helpful. You have to have a bit of a thick skin cuz sometimes people really come at you. I totally imagine. It's super helpful. So just being really vocal. And then it's similar to fashion or big tech. If you really don't like something or if something is really offensive or problematic, don't put your money there. If you don't like what a particular brand stands for or a particular ad campaign, and we don't need to mention names, but this has happened over the last five years, why go out and buy the sneakers?

I mean, back in the day of our parents boycotting, and I'm not advocating that, but it had a huge economic effect. And I think we forget as people, we have a lot of power. If you decide not to buy bananas from Ecuador because of unfair labor practices, you'd be amazed at how quickly those labor practices shift if people stop buying those bananas. I mean that's major power. And we forget that. And I think actually younger generations are starting to really recognize that. Almost more so than our generations, right? Yes. Because we're sort post-civil rights babies. 

Tamu McPherson:

But we lived in that kind of complacency a little bit.

Isolde Brielmaier:

But I think we also, our parents' generation did so much of that work. And so then our generation contended with, and I say this to all young people, we contended with other issues. We contended with AIDS. I mean the HIV/AIDSAIDS crisis came about during our youth, our formative youth. The crack epidemic. Which was huge in a city like New York, I mean you saw it came and tore through, and within one year you could see a difference. 

Tamu McPherson:

And those are people's parents now.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Exactly. So I think every generation is contending. The one thing I would say for the younger generations today that we did not have as a deep awareness of, which is kind of a shame, is the environment. It was still deteriorating as we were coming up, but it's obviously accelerated. And that is something that every generation going forward now will have to contend with. But there's always gonna be issues. And it's really inspiring to see, at least in my field, art and artists and cultural workers coming around, galvanizing to address some of those issues.

Tamu McPherson:

So one of the exciting things that I've learned about you is as your journey progressed, as you grew professionally, you also became a mother. And 12 years of that growth you've spent with amazing Farrah, how has your perspective and your processes changed while living with her? While, I guess cuz I started to see, I felt like a superhero when I had my son, I just felt incredible, and the way that he really affected my life and getting a reset to look at the world again was really impactful and important for me. How has it affected you, motherhood?

Isolde Brielmaier:

I mean, I always say it's a juggle and a joy. So the juggle piece, I think with regards to my work, I have become so meticulous on time management. And I probably know our friend Anja agrees with this. All of our friends, I'm sure the amount of work and stuff that I get done between 9 and 5 is tenfold. And probably some people, and I know probably this happens to you, are sort of like, well how do you do all of that? Because you realize when your kid gets home and he or she's got to eat and then my child's at the stage where she wants to tell me about her day or this happened in school, you have to be super present. I say I turn into a mama pumpkin instead of Cinderella. So that piece, in terms of my just time management and productivity boundaries, she's really helped me set up boundaries. So I turn my phone off, 6:30 sharp. I always turn it to vibrate so that I can spend, she goes to bed at 8:30/9:00, so I can really spend good time with her and plug in. And also humility. We started the conversation talking about being humble. And I think having a child is very humbling cuz there's no playbook. No. And just when you think something is working… It doesn't. This idea of being much more mindful and listening, I think there's this idea that parenting is always getting in there and doing this and that. But so much of it, especially as they get older, is really just being mindful and listening. That's active listening, being a parent as opposed to getting and saying do this or don't forget that. Or it's the listening pieces.

Tamu McPherson:

A lot of pieces that they're dropping that you need to be formulating for them.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Exactly. It's also just a joy. It's a joy to go out in the city with her and kind of look at the city through her eyes, or her and her friends. The things that are really important to her might be - she's not on TikTok yet. She just got a phone, and she had to sign a phone contract that went with it. And so far so good. But just her showing me things that are important to her and instead of me saying, Okay, okay, there are moments where I say, Okay, you know what, I'm gonna just put this down. I say, Fair. I have 10 minutes before I go back to this. And then I'll sit and look and it's, it's just incredibly meaningful for her.

Tamu McPherson:

Our friend Anja, she and I were having a conversation and she was like, at the heart of it, we as human beings, we wanna be seen. So at an important age like that, when they already think the world is not seeing them. Cause I think that's a part of their growth. They are trying to assert themselves. I think it's so important for us to take a piece of this advice and be mindful so that we can show, Yes, I'm looking at what you're showing. Because it's important to you, therefore it's important to me. Especially because they're so unsure. My son has pimples now, that's like a thing. Pimples also, he's 14, but he is 6’3”. So it's like, how do I control this body? 

Isolde Brielmaier:

Big feet.

Tamu McPherson:

Yeah. So there's all that uncertainty and all that change for them. Whereas I feel like being seen and being - 

Isolde Brielmaier:

 - being heard, having your concerns, as small as they may seem to us, having your concerns validated because for a 12-year old or an 8-year old or a 14-year old, something that may seem sort of insignificant. It's really huge. It's really huge. And that's constant. And I don't always get it right.

Tamu McPherson:

We don't.

Isolde Brielmaier:

I don't always get it right. If you don't believe me, I can bring her here. And she will tell you. I don't always get it right. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

Tamu McPherson:

Yeah.

Isolde Brielmaier:

It's such a joy. And I really feel lucky to be in New York. I have such a great community, like my chosen family people like Cynthia and Asmeret, all of these incredible women who are moms and they're aunties to my daughter. If I need to, Oh my gosh, I've gotta run to the museum. And then one of them will take her for a couple of hours. And I mean that piece, it takes a village. Yes. That quote, which we hear over and over and it's so true. And I think the cultures that we come from, that is actually the case. Yes. Where the kids in so many ways are raised by their community. So yeah, it's a wonderful, beautiful, at times stressful thing.

Tamu McPherson:

Yes. Because they’re a whole human being.

I always try to remind myself when my son is having a bad day, I'm like, Yeah, I'll get up, I'll be moody. I mean won't hopefully I don't take it out on anyone. If it's not at the airport, I won't take it out on them. That's my weak spot. But it's like they're learning to control all of that. And it's amazing that they contain it so well for their young age. So we have made it this far. We're here today, it's Spring 2022 . I think we've done pretty well surviving this major health crisis that is evolving every day. I think that we have really worked hard to make sure that social justice is on the top of everyone's mind, as well as sustainability. How have you managed to take care of yourself, to stay grounded, to stay positive, to stay resilient during this time? Because your work is very impactful to a whole community. That's a very, very sensitive community. And you're advocating for them. You're getting their work seen, you're getting their projects realized and you're building for the future. So how do you get up knowing what you fought for, knowing what you've created, knowing the connections that you have made? How do you maintain your drive? How do you keep marching ahead?

Isolde Brielmaier:

That goes back, I think, to self care. For me, I think having boundaries is really important. I'm really big on boundaries. Or maybe a kind of gentler term would be ‘guardrails’. So I know when I hit my limit. I know that privacy is very important to me. I know when I'm engaging with someone and what they're saying is not okay. Those sorts of things I think are really important. So I am really big on nature. I'm originally from Seattle, so I spend a lot of time, I live in Brooklyn. I spend a lot of time in the park. I was there this morning. Because I think my professional life is so social. I do value solitude. And I think some of my best sort of decompressing and recuperation is done in solitude and in the park or near the water. I mean, if I could, the water, if I could live on a - I'm definitely an island person. If I could live by the beach and do what I do, I would do it in a minute. So though knowing what I need to recoup I think is really important. And as I've gotten older, I've become much more kind of tapped into that.

And then, yeah, definitely going on news fast, which is a very privileged thing. I recognize that I can do. When some people are in the middle of deep crisis and violence right now, I try very hard to be mindful of how much of it I take in. Also a part of it is because I'm deeply affected by it, and it can be, obviously, very stressful. I think it's really important, you said earlier, too, that we're living for a purpose or maybe multiple purposes probably. And so I definitely value the work that I do outside of the art world. 

I'm on the board of the Women's Prison Association and criminal justice reform is deeply, deeply important to me. The Women's Prison Association is called WPA, it’s an organization that works with women who have come out of prison to reunite them with - 85% of women in prison are mothers.  Most of them are there for very small, petty nonviolent offenses. So it's an organization that really works with them to help them, partners with them, to help them get back on their feet, reunite with their children, jobs, housing. And I feel really, really passionate about this work. And that's something that brings me a lot of joy, I think also keeps me grounded. And then just spending time with loved ones. A friend of mine said to me the other day, I don't know if I'm all that crazy about making all these new friends. I feel like I'm at a time where I really wanna plug in to the friends or people that I know and make those connections deeper. And I thought it was interesting. She didn't mean it in a negative way, but it's kind of amazing. You and I have been connecting and then we're on virtual or whatever, but what a joy to spend time really plugging in. 

Tamu McPherson:

I appreciate that.

Isolde Brielmaier:

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Especially in the fields that we exist in, where you're always kind of circulating and smiling and to have those moments with loved ones where you can just kick off your shoes, have a glass of wine, the kids are running around. It's so nice.

Tamu McPherson:

It's really hard to also balance your friendships. This weekend when I go home to Italy, my childhood friend is coming to stay with me. But it's kind of like, indefinitely in fashion. I make new friends. I mean I make new friends if I walk outside cuz I just wanna make friends. But it's like why am I not taking care of my relationships with people who, I mean the love is unreal. The love is unreal. The love that these people and the patience they've had with me. Particularly because I make new friends all the time.

Isolde Brielmaier:

I am too actually. But I get what she's saying.

Tamu McPherson:

No, it totally resonates with me. And this past, even for a few years now, I've been really investing in older friendships or trying to make that phone call. Having that list of people that you call for the holidays, and I'm bad. I leave voice messages, because some things I can't see. The phone just, something happens, I can't. And I do all these spelling errors. So now I'm just leaving a voice message. But even if it's a voice message, I love it. I love my new friends and I love making new friends, but there's something about reconnecting, making sure that they're okay. The other thing is we're only here for a finite amount of time. Exactly. We're not gonna see these people. We're young cuz we've got a lot of time. We have a lot. We're hot girls. Exactly. In the, But yeah, I'm bright. But the time is the thing. It is. And we have a lot of fun with those people. And so it just feels so good to kind of connect with people, especially in this moment now. We're all sort of now coming out of different stages of the pandemic and able to see people in person and everything. So yeah. Joy, joy.

Tamu McPherson:

Joy. I hope in 10 years you're gonna meet me somewhere in Tuscany.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. And we'll make cacio e pepe together.

Tamu McPherson:

Let's see. No, we could make, there in Tuscany, pomodoro.

Isolde Brielmaier:

Oh, with all the fresh tomatoes.

Tamu McPherson:

Oh my gosh. 

Isolde Brielmaier:

That’s going to be amazing.

Tamu McPherson:

So we have a date.

Isolde Brielmaier:

We have a date.