Tamu McPherson: 

Michelle, thank you for joining us again here at All the Pretty Birds for Tamu’s Cafe and for showing us how to make this delicious salad. When you came in 2020, we already talked about the situation of diversity and inclusivity in Italy and the lack of it. And we talked about your work, your mission, a mission that for years you have been developing with Afro Fashion Association with all the events that you have already organized and all the projects that you do for the diaspora. You have already told us that it is very superficial how this topic is dealt with in fashion. It is easier to put a model in the front row or have a model do a runway, rather than placing people in leading roles that can make decisions in roles that can really educate the industries to make changes. Three years have passed and we have experienced a moment of global reckoning. What has happened? What has changed? What has not changed? 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

So let’s say that from 2020 when we saw each other to today a few things have happened. Obviously with the association we continued working and precisely 2020 in September together with Stella Jean and Edward Buchanan we formed a collective WAMI - We are Made in Italy to show society that there are profiles like our own that are part of Italian fabric and are Italian and are part of Italian society. And obviously together with them and the collective we started a collaboration with Camera della moda. So, every year if you noticed in 2020, the only black designer that was doing a runway in the calendar was Stella Jean. When I speak of the only black person I mean in the Italian panorama. So, together with the collective and with the support of Camera della moda, we started launching every year for two seasons, so spring/summer and fall/winter, five candidates, five emerging designers that are recognized as “Five Bridge Builders”. They show their creativity and make it clear that made in Italy is no longer or has never been a matter of the color of skin, but a savoir faire, a creativity and can no longer be linked, as it is still popular belief, to the color of your skin. 

So other than the WAMI collective, we launched in February 2022 in collaboration with Vogue Italia another very interesting project called The Unseen Profiles. Practically what it is, is a database of around 3000 resumes of professionals with multicultural backgrounds in Italy, to allow these companies, because very often the conversation with companies was that they are unable to integrate or receive profiles with multicultural backgrounds because they could not find them on the market. Therefore, the database is precisely to provide these resumes to companies. And I must say that in any case we have started to see participation from many companies who have embraced the project and with whom we continue to collaborate. In addition, this beautiful project is very important because it fills a very present gap especially in Italy, because with some companies it is very nice and cool to have a profile that is black and maybe from the United States or super cool to have a black person from Africa that is super folkloric because in this population there is this desire to try and save some profile or simply bringing back some folklore back into the company. Anyways these profiles can be found in Italy and if they never have the opportunity to work, how can we really talk about diversity and inclusion if we want to refer to the Italian context. Therefore, this project here, my partners and I are particularly proud. 

So this is a little bit of the change and the things that are happening. Very often I am asked if I am happy with the change that is happening. I tell them the change still hasn’t really happened. That is, the process of change is underway, but I’m still not seeing the fruit of change because we can talk about change if we obviously continue along the same line. Maybe in five years, when you will truly see the company no longer integrating people into the company just to make numbers of a given race, but that person really working for the place in which they were recruited. 

Tamu McPherson: 

Yes, it makes me think of many things because I know I have personally seen how you work and you have a vision for every single designer or creative you work with, a 360 vision. You can look at them and think about how they should present themselves to the world and to the industry. To me, I imagine that you have built this vision gradually over the years. Your work is beautiful because you work in Italy but you travel a lot across the continent to teach at different schools and scout talent. And in my opinion, living and observing how you work, you have taken all these cues into how you work. How do you feel now being able to build these platforms with all this information you have learned in your travel, trips, experiences. How do you feel to finally get to actually bring them into play for a bigger audience? 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Exactly, let’s also say the Michelle of 2015 when she started with Afro Fashion Association with her dreams, is not the Michelle from today. So even her dreams have changed. The dreams of before were very naive, unaware of what the reality of things really was. Then along the way, meetings, events, completed projects I realized  there were so many elements. As you said, there is a lot of information and there is a lot of creativity. Creatives cannot present themselves in the same way. I always tell the creative that I’m going to promote ‘you are going to be you because of who you are, not because you copied someone else.’ So if you do not believe in yourself or you do not believe in your own creativity and you just want to copy what you see, it means something is wrong. Or does it mean that you are not yet ready to actually be launched. 

How did I set all this up, as you asked? I based myself on experiences I had. What worked and what didn’t work to then improve and transform them. Let’s take for example, The Unseen Profiles. The Unseen Profiles was born because when I was at university, I was the president of the African students in my city and I always say this experience is the one that gave me a global  vision because it allowed me to travel to meet many young people in Italy but many of them had taken courses having attended university but did not even have access to resumes. Now I don’t want to say or syndicate, but I wondered why they didn’t have access to interviews or interviews like their classmates. And this thing stuck with me then. And having the opportunity to talk with companies, I said no this experience is an experience of exchange with companies that can be put together to create something concrete. But not something that is a vision of only today, but that can be a long term vision. I’m sure that once the companies become aware of the platform The Unseen Profiles, they will come anyway. There is no need to rush to get things done. One step at a time and really continue to persevere. Because the Michelle of 2015 for example, wanted to do everything and right away. Today’s Michelle has understood that it can be one thing to wait even five years to see results, but this means that she must continue to work harder. Again, again and again. 

Tamu McPherson: 

I have so many questions. Because really everytime I talk to you many sources come out that I can think about and even dream about. Basically you said something that is very important, there were many things, but in the narrative and in our work you said that companies like to take people from outside Italy to be symbols of inclusiveness that they want to show. As a person who grew up in the United States, in my work I do here in Italy, for other black people I pass the mic because I understand that I come here with other sets of experiences that do not mirror the experiences of a black person from Italy, who was born in italy or moved to Italy as a child as someone that lives in Italy. I try to always explain that I can't project my experience to advocate for other people because it is not right. You can say that you are adding something for the companies and even for people like me, it is more about giving the platform to others than trying to represent them. 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Yes, so if we want to address a topic, we are the base from where to start. We can’t try to solve other people’s problems when we have our own problems at home, right? So I take it in this sense, I am not thinking nor do I want others to think that I’m trying to divide the problems of black people or even people of a multicultural background. I am just simply drawing attention to the fact that we at home have the raw material and maybe we could embrace it. Now I am really addressing the companies to embrace what we have at home. We would also be able to have a shocking greater economic power, but no we are not even aware of this. And it is as if these kids with this multicultural background are made invisible by the system. And as I was saying before, it seems more cool to go abroad to become ‘protectors'. In the meantime, let’s start at home and then slowly we can expand because it also depends on the vision of the company. If I go abroad because I want a profile with a multicultural background it means that perhaps I haven’t really understood the society in which I live. But then if I go out abroad because I want an American view, then in that sense I’m not just going to get a guy who belongs in the BIPOC umbrella, I am getting anyone so it may be a black person  or an Asian person or white person and so on. But if I go looking specifically for a black person in the United States, then I don’t really understand what diversity and inclusion is. Also because the black person I’m going to look for abroad will bring me his culture but will still ignore the culture of the country in which the company they are working for is in. So it’s kind of like this, We have many profiles with a multicultural background in Italy that constitutes a crazy abundance, I always say, because they hold two cultures, they hold two visions so why not embrase these profiles and really develop ourselves as well just like other nations. Now I would not like to compare Italy to other nations, because they are completely different stories. I am simply saying that we should be more aware of the abundance we have at home.  

Tamu McPherson: 

I agree. The other thing I wanted to ask you, is as a BIPOC woman, multicultural, practically with your work you are creating an example on how we need work and communicate with these decision makers in these companies who never really saw us, especially BIPOC women. In the last three years, what is a lesson that you learned that you can share with all the women of the world, BIPOC women of the world on how they should react in these situations in front of a board, in these important tense meetings. How should they behave to communicate the vision of their group or organization, and the objective of their movement. 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

That, for example, we no longer have to let others define us or tell us how much we need to express ourselves. This is the very first thing because in almost three years what I have noticed and what has taught me so much is that if we leave to others, for example when we are in a meeting with a board, with the decision makers as you call them, as soon as you leave the power to others to tell you when to speak, you have already lost. And that does not mean you need to raise your voice or argue. Absolutely not. Just as they have the right and they take it because they always take the moment to speak, us women too have to take the right moment, but above all we should feel quite sure of ourselves when we go to these meetings or even when we simply want to communicate ideas or visions that we have because very often “victims” of how or where they put us or society treats us, we already find ourselves less secure than others form the start, for example at the table. So if you are not sure of your vision of your idea perhaps that vision of the team is not yet mature. So I always tell creatives the first thing is to be confident in the ideas we have, the second thing above all to not let others tell us when and where we need to talk. 

Tamu McPherson: 

Yes, I have heard that you are very impressive in meetings, which we like. Can I offer you some tea? 

Michelle Ngonomo: 

Yes, absolutely, with pleasure. 

Above all, it is an exercise to understand when…thank you… we need to speak up. It is an exercise that is also somewhat exhausting because it is tiring because it already starts as being tired because you need to prepare mentally. And you say but why do I have to go through this and another person doesn’t, because one, you are a woman and we live in a world that is super chauvinistic where there is patriarchy, we can’t tell fairy tales. And two you have the addition of being BIPOC. And this is a double job, you must be aware of this and in the meantime understand that nobody gives you anything. So, if people don’t already give a woman anything, you add the component of being BIPOC.

Tamu McPherson: 

Yes, the intersection of both things.

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Yes, yes, absolutely. So, there, also it takes a lot of patience, but a lot. A lot, a lot. 

Tamu McPherson: 

But the one thing I am sure about you is that you did this work before without any help, using your own resources, then asking people to help you, and you received a lot of help in my opinion in the community, but you had a vision and basically you did, you found a way to do what you wanted, to show this type talent in Italy and BIPOC that existed and you went ahead. 

There was this moment after the killing, homicide of George Floyd that created a moment where we could demand an industry change but still I know that without this event you would have continued until you got to your goal. You said something before about seeds, about planting seeds, for next year, you are planting seeds now for something even bigger, relative to the other projects you’ve launched. But this is another project that within years, in the future will have an extremely important role for BIPOC creatives in Italy, also abroad. And the nice thing in my opinion, and now you will tell us about it, but the nice thing about this is that you are also making an example of the opposite of the Italian way of doing things. You start inside to go outside instead of bringing inside. So then tell us about this new project you are launching, within a couple of days. 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

So yeah, the other project that we are particularly proud of is the The Black Carpet Awards, which is, in my opinion, quite an important and relevant project in society. Obviously with the years to come, it will tell what it will become. The Black Carpet Awards wants to go and celebrate all the stories, because very often what the system does is when there is a story in the BIPOC community, it stops at that single story and forgets all the other stories. So, with the Black Carpet Awards, they are going to tell all the stories. In fact the motto is ‘Celebrating all stories.’ So in fact, we are going to tell all the stories. It is a gala event just like all the carpet awards. We have the Sustainability Fashion Awards, which is more about environmental sustainability, etc. The Black Carpet Awards is more about diversity and inclusion. So we will go and start from Italy precisely to then expand in the years to come to other countries. We will go, let’s say, to reward all creatives but not only in the fashion field, but precisely art, culture, music, sport. All of those who through their work bring or have contributed to bringing about a change in the narrative in Italy. We will therefore have five categories and each winner will be called ‘Leader of Change.’ And therefore we will have a Leader of Change Culture, Leader of Change Heritage, Leader of Change Social, Leader of Change Entrepreneurship. Because very often when we talk about diversity and inclusion we always approach it from a charitable point of view, in the sense ok they need help let’s help them. There are many entrepreneurs in Italy who still contribute to making the Italian economy better. So we are going to give a space to all the entrepreneurs and Leader of Change can be any kind of profile. From teacher, to engineer, to designer, to influencer. Really the ones who helped change the narrative. 

Tamu McPherson: 

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

Michelle Ngonmo: 

And I will tell you one more thing now about this project. The great thing is that when I thought about ‘let’s join forces,’ so I went knocking on everyone’s door. I also came to you and I thank you very much. And the great thing is that the team comes from many professional backgrounds that had not collaborated before. So, it’s also a good example of how we all together can create or bring to life projects of this kind to really reflect the society we have in mind in which we always talk about. Because often we have these discussions about diversity and inclusion and they get together but there is still a shortage of projects where so many people have come together to be able to materialize and implement them. And this is what makes me the proudest of the Black Carpet Awards. 

Tamu McPherson:  

Ok, what is your last dream for your project? Where would you like this new baby of yours to arrive?

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Well, I dream that this Black Carpet Awards in five years is comparable to all the other awards in the world. That there is equally the same space that we give to all the awards. I would not like to mention the name of the awards, but for it to become an international project embraced by all nations. And how Madiba said “a winner is a dreamer that never gives up.”  So as long as there is life we continue to dream and above all to work because there is dreaming and then after the dream you have to work to make the dream come true.

Tamu McPherson: 

Thank you so much. I have to tell you every time I feel inspired by a project, I get the desire to really work, to put down your head - not sure if this translates but we say this in English - and work. And that part for me is fun. Do you find it fun?

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Yes, I find it fun. Oh, and really the last thing, really the last. Seeing as how we are always talking about diversity and inclusion and even I give courses to companies and even C Suite there was a topic that we would always focus on which is the language. And through the language we can choose to work on the words we use. In 2024, we will publish a  glossary to give the tools because we realized that in any case very often the words were translated from English and not translated correctly. For example, in Italy we use the term ‘people of color’ to specifically speak of black people, when you could simply say black people. In English, people of color is more often an umbrella. 

Tamu McPherson: 

This is important because POC for us versus BIPOC. Thank you for talking about this. In anticipation of this glossary, which is definitely necessary, can you leave for our community other examples that are right to use in Italy versus in America. In fact, I started with person of color and then I changed when you were using BIPOC. This is something that I want all of our supporters to know that in every territory we need to adjust our language to speak. So can you tell us, even just two more words. 

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Sure of course. For example, even the term mulatto, often in Italy we use the term mulatto or ‘meticcio’ - mixed race. Mulatto is a word that was coined to talk about people who come from two parents with different belongings. Anyway if we look at the origins of this word it has a negative connotation related to horses, animals and we can’t use this to speak about people. 

Tamu McPherson: 

We can’t use it for humans.

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Exactly not for humans.

What I always say even when I go to touch the issue of language and we must take into account the socio-cultural context of where we are, but above all we must also understand the other as they want to be defined, how and what they like. My best friend is CHinese and  I had a bad habit of making jokes that to me were funny but for her they weren’t. And so through language we have a lot of unconscious biases. And so it is always more important than making a list, let’s confront ourselves with the person we have in front of us. Curiosity is what saves us, right? The more we learn from each other, the better we can find the right words to express ourselves. 

Tamu McPherson: 

This conversation, this conversation right? And we need to talk more. And we don’t have to be embarrassed to make a mistake because to get to the correct language we need to confront each other., And I would say that we are all waiting for the release of all these projects and good luck. Because you guys with Afro Fashion Association, WAMI, the Unseen and the Black Carpet Awards were born to re-educate Italy and the world with the talent and contribution of BIPOC. And thank you.

Michelle Ngonmo: 

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you above all for your support.

Tamu McPherson: 

Of course. I enjoy learning and helping. 

Place settings generously furnished by Bitossi:

Plate Fondo Floreale, Dinner Plate Floreale, Citrus Plater, Tomato Platter, Gold Matte Finish, Cutlery Set, Pitcher With Foot, Water Glasses, Teapot, Blue Flower Mug, Orange Flower Mug, Fragrant Candle, Hand Jar, Napkin Sis, Bird Square Box with Lid