SASHA PAYTON

Tamu McPherson:

Sasha, Tell us about your background. 

Sasha Payton:

I am a born and raised New Yorker with a Caribbean background, both parents from different islands. My dad is from Jamaica and my mom is from Saint Martin, the French part of the island. 

Tamu McPherson:

What were some of the beauty traditions you grew up with in your household? 

Sasha Payton:

When it comes to beauty, I was heavily influenced by my mother, and always seeing her when I was very young, getting ready. She would be in her undergarments and the first thing was her makeup, always with this beautiful purple lip. Her hair was always done to the nines. Like, you would never catch her with anything out of place when it comes to beauty.

Tamu McPherson:

What was her hairstyle like? 

Sasha Payton:

Well, both of us had relaxers. At this point she would keep it in a roller set. Every night, roll it up and then let it out. It had a bouffant kind of feel. It was kind of high, and she would slick it back to the side. Really. Yeah. It really was super pretty, lots of volume.

Tamu McPherson:

How did she care for your hair growing up? 

Sasha Payton:

Under five, I used to have braids, always some kind of corn row style, and always with beads. Then after a certain point I had a kiddie perm, and then a perm. We would go every Sunday into Flatbush, super early in the morning. This was a ritual for us, and we would wait in line for that salon to open. And we got our relaxers touched up, and she got her style and I would walk out in my doobie wrap . 

Tamu McPherson:

So, when was your first relaxer? 

Sasha Payton:

Somewhere around seven or eight. 

Tamu McPherson:

And was there any other young girl or boy in your family that got a relaxer at that time? 

Sasha Payton:

Yeah, my cousin. We are the same age, so it was the both of us that had it. That was my closest peer. 

Tamu McPherson:

And at school? 

Sasha Payton:

I did grow up seeing different textures of straight hair from the little white girls in school and other Black classmates. So, yeah, there were some other people. Either they had their hair straightened with a hot comb or it was relaxed. 

Tamu McPherson:

What do you remember about the process of getting your hair relaxed? 

Sasha Payton:

It was tedious and long, but I didn't mind it because I wanted to feel beautiful, and that's what I associated with beauty. So it was actually exciting to have that done.

Tamu McPherson:

And apart from your mom, who were your other beauty references? 

Sasha Payton:

Definitely my sister. My oldest sister, Keisha. She was one that always changed her hair, from really long braids, box braids, extensions all the way down to her behind, and definitely relaxers. I remember her shaving her head, but she, as well, was always put together at all times. 

Tamu McPherson:

Outside of your family, where did you come up with the idea that straight or silky hair was the preferred style of beauty? 

Sasha Payton:

The first thing I think of is the bus stops in Staten Island, where I grew up, seeing the Pantene Pro-V advertisements and the Garnier commercials... the woman in the shower who’s having orgasms because this shampoo is just so wonderful in her hair. And when it comes out dry, it's luscious and beautiful and she's flipping it back and forth. For me, that was a reference point of what it meant to be beautiful, or to have beautiful hair. I can vividly remember this commercial because it ran on every station. 

Tamu McPherson:

So, if you started with the relaxer around seven years old, how did that evolve? Did you have other chemical treatments? What was that journey like for you?

Sasha Payton:

We started off with the chemical straightener, from the kiddie perms to the regular relaxers, which eventually broke my hair off. I ended up with no edges–about one inch of edges just gone on the entire circumference of my head. And at that point, I still remember trying to hide it with a headband, going to school and still being proud of the straight parts of my hair. 

About an inch or two of afro grew below that, and I was still just trying to cover it up, which was just absolutely awful. The look was bad, but it was just hanging onto the straight dead hair. I just couldn't let it go. So eventually, we chopped everything off.

Tamu McPherson:

And what was that new style like? 

Sasha Payton:

I remember that was another trip, either to the Bronx or Queens, someone in someone's house. And this woman was known for doing great Jheri Curls. I had one aunt at the time that used to get a Jheri Curl regularly, and she said, this is gonna grow your hair. So that's why we put that in. The process was really long, really tedious the first time. I feel like I was there for five hours, but it could have been more. 

Tamu McPherson:

And how old were you at that point? 

Sasha Payton:

I was in middle school. And at that time everyone knew of…what's the movie? Coming to America? Is it Coming to America? Just the Jheri Curl juice. It was awful. When I first got it in fifth grade, I cared so much. I was like, oh my God, everyone's making fun of me. My hair is like super wet. I'm leaving marks everywhere, including some of my other aunts that were like, you cannot get in my brand new Mercedes, hold on, here's a towel, lay it down. 

But then, by the time I got to sixth grade, I was like, well, this is my hair. Somehow I started to own it a bit, because it did grow out very quickly. I guess it was all of that moisture. Then eventually I stopped getting the Jheri Curl, and I stopped putting the solution in and it more or less blended with my natural texture, in a way. And then I went and put another permit in. 

It was normal to have this bone straight hair–it was dead straight. Like, the hair was still falling out, but it grew long in certain areas, and I was proud of it up until my twenties. Everyone had relaxers. Some of my peers at the time started to experiment with weaves and wigs, but it was always straight hair, always straight.

Tamu McPherson:

So what eventually led you to a change? 

Sasha Payton:

I remember I was dating a guy and he would make fun of me. He was like, oh my God, your hair is everywhere all over my floor, you can't even see. And it was true, my hair would just drop straight. If I combed it in the morning, it was all over. And it's natural, your hair does fall out, but it was to an extent where it's like, well, actually why am I doing this? 

At the time I was giving modeling another shot. I tried to get into modeling as early as age 16. I would try, on and off, with a lot of agency rejection. So I would put it down and then I would go back out again. 

Tamu McPherson:

Why were you being rejected? 

Sasha Payton:

We have a black girl on the board. 

Tamu McPherson:

So, tokenism. And now, are you still modeling? 

Sasha Payton:

I work as a model, and as a producer in fashion. Backstage runways and photo shoots. I consult on different projects, sometimes I act as a hairstylist for other models, braiding or styling for a shoot or show. I have experience in casting, and work as a styling assistant in Paris, Milan, and a bit in New York. 

Tamu McPherson:

So, you have had a global look at the industry. Did you have other BIPOC models that you could talk to? 

Sasha Payton:

I didn't know anyone in fashion. I was looking up online what it meant to be in fashion, or like how to get in. So I had absolutely no reference besides watching Full Frontal Fashion on TV and watching models walk down the runway. I didn't know that there were other jobs out there aside from being a model, or like what that would even look like. 

When I was initially being rejected by agencies, I don't think I took it to heart at first. I just thought, okay, this is just what it is. But then I started to understand when they would start naming certain models: okay, we have this person and that's good enough. Okay, wait, now I get it. There can only be a few. And that started to bother me, but not to the point where I wanted to quit fashion. So, I started to study other areas in school.

Tamu McPherson:

Did you think that you would ever–because you're vocal on social media about the state of modeling, the state of fashion–did you ever think that we would arrive at a time like today where models are speaking out about the lack of diversity? Did you think about this time, or you were just trying to break into the industry?

Sasha Payton:

At that point I was just trying to break in. I really didn't have a full understanding of the world of modeling at all. I definitely saw the glamorous side and took it as that, and it was like, that's what I want, and this is what I wanna do. I didn't think about people speaking up about it in the future. Absolutely not. Not until I started to experience it, to get some kind of acceptance.

So, at this point, I was 23 or 24, and an agency referred me to a guy that scouts and gives advice to and places models. He said, you know, you have a great look, but don't straighten your hair. And I'm like, but it's a chemical straightener. And he said, yeah, I know, but just wash it, it's going to still have a different texture to it. And he was absolutely right. He said, just let it air dry and like, take some pictures. Clients don't really want that. He was the first person to tell me, clients don't really want this. They don't want you to be too different from who you really are. And so I did that the next shoot–I washed my hair and let it air dry. It was still straight texture, just fuzzy and big: closer to an afro. And from there I was like, you know what? I do look beautiful with texture in my hair. It was the first time I saw myself like that in a really long time. 

Tamu McPherson:

Wow. You know, sometimes people influence us to make a change that puts us on the path to who we are, or who we need to be, or bring us back to our natural self. 

Sasha Payton:

But on the model side, you quickly can learn that you are literally the object. And sometimes people feel like they can do anything, and that includes when they're touching your hair. You know, sometimes it's forgotten that this is still a person that's in your chair, even though you might be a hairstylist or makeup artist that is there to create a dream and a vision. You still have to respect the person that's there.

I've had experiences backstage where people were hurting me. Not knowing how to move through my very curly texture, and pulling my hair in ways that were uncomfortable, asking me to come in extra early to do my hair, even though it wouldn't have taken this long, and still walking the runway in a way that's absolutely not presentable. 

On the production side, that's a whole other experience. It's distracting. It's obviously not so much about my hair and more so respect in the space. As a producer, you are essentially running the show. So, if we're talking strictly about racism, you can feel that you go unheard, or people feel like, okay, who is your boss? And it's like, actually I’m running the show today. I'm asking you to move this section here. This is where hair will be today. 

Sasha Payton:

In hair styling, one of the last jobs that I did, I asked the model, okay, like, how do you feel? And she had really short hair, a very small afro kind of like yours. And I just touched her up, made sure everything was in place. She's like, I feel really beautiful, and it's very simple, but that really touched me because I've been backstage where there are models that won't even be touched or even be looked at because, oh, she, she has a mini afro, it's fine. Like, you still, you still need to show her some love! She's going in front of a camera, she's a model. She needs to feel her most beautiful before she's out there. But I've witnessed some really interesting things. And if it's not happening to me, I've seen it done to other people. 

Tamu McPherson:

Like what? 

Sasha Payton:

Okay. So one, you can see a discomfort in models at times, not really wanting to speak up. In that place, I would step in and try to soften the situation and see where I can help. But what I've noticed is from the white gaze… how do I describe it as an example? As, as a Black person from America, we'd like our edges to be laid a certain way. This is a sign of being finished and it being polished and done correctly. In fashion, it might be, no, we don't want this, we're gonna ruffle the edges because this is not fashionable. We're advertising essentially to a group of people, but like, who are you really communicating to and who is the one that is doing the communicating? If you have a white hairstylist that deems this beautiful and this is what they want to do, and I am sitting in your chair and you're telling me, here, I'm going to just ruffle your edges, go out, you look great. I don't feel great. I've seen models feel that way and say it and it be a bit ignored and they say like, no, no, no, honey, I would never do that to you. You look absolutely fabulous. They’re not listening mm-hmm. But they're also not really taking into consideration that person's culture and how it's communicated to the people that you're essentially selling to by using a Black model. 

Tamu McPherson:

How has the atmosphere on the production side changed as you moved into Europe? Paris, for example?

Sasha Payton:

In Paris, I've witnessed both sides of the spectrum. I've experienced hair stylists that are wonderful with Black hair. And you can tell that they took the time to get the education, whether it be through YouTube or trying with their friends, but they show care and love. On the other hand, I've seen some of the biggest stylists out there use it as a photo op, not touch a model. And at the lineup, just after the model has done their own hair or each other's hair, go and spray, just do the finishing or tap that afro right there in the line, even though they never paid the model any attention. In fact, blatantly shooed them away when they're trying to get everything done before getting dressed. This is very problematic, because when you're in the lineup and you have the backstage photographers there, these images get fed out to the different publications. It gets used on the artist’s social media and the brands that are behind these artists, they continue to get bookings because, oh, look, they can do afro hair. 

Tamu McPherson:

It's misleading. 

Sasha Payton:

It's very misleading, and it continues that way. They have people that are totally incompetent doing the job, and they're never going to refuse the work because why would they? If someone approaches them thinking that they have this skill set and they actually don't, they're too prideful. One, to take advice from the models on their own hair, and two, to turn down a job or say I need help here, or maybe we should hire an assistant, or I'm not the right person for the job. So, that's my experience with Paris. A little bit of both. 

Tamu McPherson:

And Milan? Your current hometown. 

Sasha Payton:

Milan was very interesting. Like people absolutely would not touch me for the first six weeks. 

Tamu McPherson:

And you came at the start of the pandemic, right? What changed and why did they start touching you after that? Was it after George Floyd? 

Sasha Payton:

The shoots that I was on, I've been handed references and told, hey, can you, can you just do this? Like actual hairstyles. Can you reference this? And I would do it. It might be a makeup artist, hair stylist, like a person that does both, and they would just do my makeup. Then they'll be like, here's some supplies to use. I've had photographers on set be aggressive towards me and my hair. All in the name of getting a certain aggression out of me for the image that means pulling my hair, and being rough with me. 

Tamu McPherson:

Complete objectivization. 

Sasha Payton:

I tried to reach out to different hair stylists in Milan, that are afro hair stylists. Maybe they had salon experience, which is still a different world, but I tried to get them in to backstage and to shoot because we need them so badly. I reached out to friends that work internationally as well, and I'm like, girl, if you come here for three months, you can work. They need you here. Eventually I just started to braid my hair down and it was like, no, this is how you're gonna book me. 

Tamu McPherson:

And did you notice a lot of girls braiding their hair down as well? 

Sasha Payton:

Something that I've noticed in fashion is that, as a Black model, for the most part, there's either little to no hair, like a mini fro or braids, or it’s the big afro like I used to wear. And there are not too many models with that.  

Tamu McPherson:

Do you think it's because there's a lack of care? It's almost easier for you to have a protective style or no hair? 

Sasha Payton:

I think this is their gaze of what beauty is on a black person. But I've seen other models through the years that started out with a lot of hair and then it broke off. They had to just chop it off. Because there's no care, and that goes for everyone, okay? But you intentionally need to care for black care in order for it to thrive. You have to actually care for it. So essentially in fashion, the beauty standard is no hair. That's what Black women look like in fashion. 

Tamu McPherson:

What is your personal experience, in terms of standards of beauty in Paris and then in Milan outside of work? 

Sasha Payton:

In Paris I was wearing a very big, beautiful afro almost out to my shoulders. For the most part, the Parisians are unbothered. Those who found it beautiful would complement my hair. At certain points, other non-French people feel the need to grab at it, touch it, while also complementing it. I picked up some jobs bartending or working as a cocktail waitress, and people would come in and just feel the need to touch. 

Tamu McPherson:

And how did you manage those situations? 

Sasha Payton:

Absolute shock, every time it happens. At first it's a shock. Like, okay, you just touched me on my head, you're really in there, you did it. I just don't wanna be touched by a stranger. So the first thing is shock. In those situations where I was working, you can't curse the person out. It’s total frustration. You're a bit powerless. Like if I do speak up, I'm gonna be the problem because hey, they meant it in the best way possible. They meant that as a compliment. But I'm just trying to tell you, it's beautiful. But that does not mean that you now have the right to touch me. 

Tamu McPherson:

Have you had any instances here in Milan? 

Sasha Payton:

The only instance I did have here was when I put in a long wig weave, and I was at a bar with my agent and someone came up to us, and they were really nice and laughing. And then finally–I guess this is what she really approached us for–she was like, oh, is that your hair? Can I touch it? And because I didn't feel attached to that hair was on for one night, I said, well, oh, okay, you can, but I'm just gonna let you know that you should never, ever do that. Like, don't even ask another Black woman to do that. I'm telling you that I feel totally disconnected to this hair because it's not something that I walk around with all the time. 

Tamu McPherson:

And what was her response? 

Sasha Payton:

She proceeded to tell me about one of her good friends, that's a Black woman that also does long weaves. I guess she was expressing her curiosity. 

Tamu McPherson:

And soon now, you're going to focus on working in New York. What are your expectations in the United States today? 

Sasha Payton:

Well, coming from New York, it's always been a much more diverse place, where you do experience Black hair stylists, Black makeup artists, POC in general, people working in every area of production, which is a beautiful thing. But I would say in my experience, even during the last fashion week in New York, it was a lot less of us, as models. I don't know why.

Tamu McPherson:

I want to take it back to our discussion about your relaxer. I know that you are familiar with the research that connects uterine cancer to relaxers. As large multinational beauty companies move toward deciding what they're gonna do with relaxers, what do you think needs to be done to protect BIPOC women, and how do you think that these companies can acknowledge the role they have played, the billions of dollars that they've made from those products? What needs to be done? 

Sasha Payton:

Here in Europe, we can't even get certain basic hair care products like your shampoo conditioner, because of the ingredients in them, because they are dangerous. These relaxer products need to be treated the very same way internationally, until they're made safe. Why distribute something that we absolutely know with solid evidence contributes to cancer, in black women specifically, because they are who is using these products. Something has to change. 

Tamu McPherson:

Given the historical use and abuse, do you feel like they should just remove them without even thinking? 

Sasha Payton:

I mean, that's tough. Because then at the same time you are taking away someone’s right to use these products. There are so many people out there using these products still, and they're happy about it and it's fine, and taking that away from them would be hard. They're not trying to give it up, and that's all right. 

 I feel like these companies can change some ingredients. Remove them, replace them. I find it hard to believe that these multibillion-dollar companies can't do something quite quick. Especially because this is not a new discovery. Like, we already knew these things were harmful for us. It's now proven. 

Tamu McPherson:

As a model, do you have any advice for our community on how to advocate for ourselves and center confidence? 

Sasha Payton:

I know it's hard to speak up, because we often are quite nervous about the feedback we're gonna get. Often, we are looked at as the monster in the situation when we're truly the victim. Because you have made a comment about me, or you've said something or done something towards me. And my reaction–that is absolutely warranted–gets demonized. Like, you're now the angry one. 

Ignore that because that's always going to be there. Respectfully own your autonomy. Like own your body and explain that you do not like this and you won't tolerate it, or you don't want to be touched in a certain way, or you'd rather not have this kind of comment. It lies in confidence and self-worth.

Acknowledge it. You are in the right to own everything that you have, and to speak up about it. Once you understand that self-worth, your value, having the confidence to own it and deliver it–and, regardless of that reaction, stick with it. Because someone's always going to say something, they always will.