Tamu McPherson:

When we were walking before, you asked me what was the first dish that I ate that I can remember! So what was the first dish that you ate that you can remember? 

Sophia Li:

It would have to be Chinese food for sure. I have a first memory and then my family has a first memory of me. The one that my family tells me is that my mom made this platter of Chinese-style ribs. And then I got on the table and then just started eating all of them. I was like two. Just sitting on the table and they came back and it was just like… bones.

But my first memory was probably  dumpling making, because that's like such a vivid memory. They brought us into that at such a young age as just like a family communal activity. But I think your first memory with taste kind of dictates the rest of your life, because mine was always spice and flavor. So if it’s anything bland, I'm always known to be that person that asks for hot sauce at the restaurant, no matter what. Especially when I travel. I have a little airplane bag and everyone else has their eye masks and like their gua sha and their rose spritz. And I have my hot sauce bag. There are some areas you travel to and I always need to bring my own hot sauce. Because they only have Tabasco. 

But what's yours, what's your first memory? 

Tamu McPherson:

So my first memory is a memory that's been reinforced by my family. In Jamaica, since we lived near the beach we just have so much fresh fish. I was two and a half years old, and I would require my own whole fish. I didn't want it fileted, I wanted to eat a whole fish. And one day I was having my whole fish and I swallowed a bone, and it got lodged in my throat. So then I do remember sitting there and saying to myself - or this is my imagination, you know, recounting the story - I cannot let anyone realize that this is happening to me because they won't give me a whole full fish anymore. So I remember sitting there and it was stuck, and I had to get it back up and I got it out.

But then after that, my aunt, who I lived with, realized this and they told me after that she'd be like breaking down the fish with her hands and like feeding it to me. That was the kind of person she was with everything, but that was my first memory. I do still love a whole fish and I'm so happy in Italy that they serve it whole. 

I think across the Caribbean, food really is a love language for us. When I first moved here, I lived in Nyack, New York where my mom still lives, and we had like a tight knit, Caribbean family. And I remember learning all the traditions of my Haitian friends and the traditions of my Costa Rican friends. I've never been to Haiti, but I remember traveling to Costa Rica, for example, and searching out the food, but then realizing I was in the wrong region. It's because I already had the specific idea of what the food was, good food is so rich and I feel like the experience is so luxurious and I feel like the moments that I shared with my family, extended family with our village were, you know, often centered around food. But it would be the preparation, which would last for hours, and it would be chaotic. And then in addition to that, there would be like there would always be a party after.  And there'd be dancing, and then the children would be in a room hanging out and then the parents would be socializing. And I feel like that really was kind of like the foundation of how, how I look at entertaining and enjoying myself today. 

Sophia Li:

I love that the food extends to a party, because it's like that's the energy! That's just the continuous energy. I mean food was, I think it's the ultimate love language. More than emotional or physical or any of that. In our household and in Chinese culture a lot, you don't say I love you very much to your family. Hugging, maybe even is considered ‘too much’. Whenever I hug my grandparents, they're like, Oh, okay, yes, you're hugging me. You know? But how they say I love you is by scooping another bowl of rice, making sure there's always fruit when you come home. I saw this incredible tweet that said love is when your mom makes a fresh cut platter of fruit whenever you and your friends come home from school.

When we go to China and visit relatives, I'm like the fullest I ever am because you go to different households and at every household they offer you food, and it's their sign of love to be like, here's this array and this spread of food and it's your sign to eat it to show your own affection to them. So you have to like, at least eat a little orange, eat a nibble, eat this here and there. Because that's just the way we communicate. And we were talking about how even, at a dinner table, in western cultures it’s considered rude to slurp or smack or make noises with your mouth. But in eastern culture and in China, there's so many dishes of noodles and soup, and it's like, the louder you slurp, the more it's like a compliment to the chef. It's like, this is delicious, thank you! 

Tamu McPherson:

That's the norm. It's like you're not holding yourself back. You're truly enjoying the food that you're eating. In Jamaica, we actually have a saying that is the ultimate expression of love: we love you like cook food. That's what we say. I love you like cooked food, because that's how much we pride our cuisine.

Sophia Li:

Even to this day, if I make you food or I invite you over to dinner and we cook together, that's the ultimate extension of ‘I love you’. I want to invest in this relationship.

Tamu McPherson:

Well thank you for preparing this major ramen cabbage salad for me because it is so simple. And I hope I have not embarrassed anyone with my technique of slurping.

Sophia Li:

No, I’m like, slurp more, slurp louder! Like, if I don't hear any slurping, I'm like, Does she like this?

Tamu McPherson:

Well if it's not all over my face and I'm not crying and my nose isn't running, it's not happening. Whole body's happening to me. Always activating every part of my body. Appreciate this stuff. 

I want to talk to you about your career and the path that you're on. You studied journalism, you worked as a journalist, you also worked as a trend forecaster, which I think is super interesting. I feel that it also has kind of prepared you for being able to see very far ahead. It's like a mythology that you've learned. And now you are a celebrated media communicator and your focus is climate and social issues. How did this come about? How did you move into space and what do you wish to contribute to the conversation going forward for future generations?

Sophia Li:

I think a lot of it has to do with my upbringing. I've always considered myself a futurist, even when I didn't even realize that term existed, and I still do. Futurist is someone who's inspired by the future, who wants to build a world they want to live in, who's bringing in different solutions and ways of thinking into this future world. And I think that's actually one of the best parts of working in climate  and sustainability, is always having a radical imagination of what this future can look like. Now oftentimes it's been stripped away because of the doom and gloom and wondering, does that future even exist? But that's why I still hold onto it so much because it's like, why wouldn't you dream of a better world in the future you live in? And I think that a lot has to do with my parents always doing that.

They grew up during the cultural revolution, the communist revolution, and they always dreamed of what would be past that. And then they made careers for themselves, they’re scientists and mathematicians. I always thought I was the black sheep of the family because I was always very creative. And my dad was a neuroscientist and my mom is a biostatistician. And I was like, well, but, I'm this creative type. And then I realized when I was in trend forecasting, and then I realized with journalism and how I see the world now, that's actually been a huge part of everything. because I look at things from a science level, from a data level, but I also look at things from a systemic level, a zoomed out level. I take both the emotional aspect and the science, and I try to fuse that together because I'm very much a human emotional person. Then, my upbringing has very much been about data. So sometimes bringing those together is kind of what helps. In terms of social issues, everything we're fighting for today, it's all interconnected. I think because I'm innately an optimist and a futurist, those are all issues that I, I'm like, yeah, why, why wouldn't we fight for this? And that means we choose to believe in a world that these issues would be alleviated.

Tamu McPherson:

The fact is that if you are a civilian, like myself, and you are at a place where it is gloom and doom and you don't know where to look and you can't escape the sense of looming catastrophe, especially if you wanted to look to sources where you could tap into someone who can reimagine the situation in a way where we could be optimistic. What would you say to us? How can we be hopeful given the news cycle, which is scary? What should we do to be hopeful, and in doing so, then how can we reset and contribute to getting us to where we need to be?

Sophia Li:

Well, hope is an active choice, and I think you can either have hope or you can have fear. We were just talking about the pandemic, for example, because it is a really great case study on a very centralized timeframe that most humans can understand, that we all entered the pandemic with a lot of fear. We did not know the outcome. We didn't know the unknown. There were people who showed their worst sides, like fighting over toilet paper. And fear is the lowest emotional human frequency. It's the lowest frequency on a human emotional level. That's actually been studied. You can measure the frequency of fear, and it's the lowest, but that also means it's the most accessible.

So anyone from a dog to a child, they understand fear, because it's something you so easily tap into. And so you enter through fear. But then after the pandemic, after months of lockdown, after months of reflecting, we transcended into mutual aid, we transcended into community, we transcended into love and we transcended into this other level of emotion that was supportive of each other, taking care of each other. And I think that's where we are with the climate crisis. Even though the climate crisis is on a bigger scale, it's harder to see that. And whereas the pandemic, during lockdown, was like a very centralized timeframe that we can kind of pin down. So in the climate crisis, it's like everyone enters through fear because it is a scary thing. It's very overwhelming. It's a natural human coping mechanism to delay the climate crisis because like, I just need to live my own life. I just need to survive day to day. I just need to feed my kids. I just need to put food on the table. I just need to go to work. I just need to pay my own bills. How can I think about this looming climate crisis? It's too much for me to understand. 

But then once you work through the fear, we can also transcend into the community, to mutual aid, the caretaking and ultimately the acceptance of love. It's like working through the climate crisis is like working through any grief, where there's seven stages of emotions you have to go through, and if you've ever lost a loved one, everyone knows grief never goes away. You will always grief and that grief. And that's the same with the climate crisis. We will always grieve to some extent the world that we live in today.

We are in the sixth mass extinction. We're grieving for a world we used to know, we were grieving for many different things. Not just a loss of life, but a loss of normalcy or what was even normal though. But we're grieving. And then you work towards it. At the beginning stages you'll have shock, you'll have denial, you'll have anger, have sadness, Those are all fear based emotions as well. And then, in your grief cycle, then you start coming out on the other end and then become acceptance. That doesn't mean the grief is gone, but you've become acceptance. You have this acceptance of it. And that's what I think collectively, as a human psyche, we’re navigating with the climate crisis.

Tamu McPherson:

The way I experience it is, I have a son and I think, oh my God, what kind of life is he gonna live? And I don't have the input that you've just given me to say that the community is gonna come together and create a situation where they can sustain what's happening around them. I don't like it, I don't even get that far. I just think, Oh my God, what am I doing to him? So thank you for that.

Sophia Li:

I think a lot of times, people will say the most impactful thing you could do for the environment is not to have kids, is to commit to not having children. And I mean, I think it's one quite eco-fascist, and then two to say, oh, how, like we're deciding that we're not going to have kids. We're deciding we're going to take away this future from the kids because of our actions. We're deciding that they may not be the ultimate caretakers. I mean we've already seen with the younger generation how involved with the climate community they are.

Tamu McPherson:

How reasonable, how - 

Sophia Li:

Rational, How human, how emotional, how they prioritize community over wealth and capitalism.

Tamu McPherson:

And individualistic tendencies.

Sophia Li:

Collectivism over individualism. There's this beautiful quote from indigenous communities that says that we don't inherit this land from our parents, we borrow it from our children.

Tamu McPherson:

It's like one of those moments where truly I got another piece of the puzzle today and these pieces really enable me to live the way I want to live. And they are precious pieces, because I was missing this mindset. I feel like even with my son now, I'll be able to navigate in a different way that I was lacking before. And then also like with my friends who are grappling with the same questions. 

Sophia Li:

A lot of land defenders, they're the ones who have told me like joy is the greatest resistance to the climate crisis, because the climate crisis was created by systems like capitalism that tells you you need to work instead of having birthright emotions, like joy. Joy is our birthright. And we don't need to work in order to have joy. But that's what these systems feed us. Everyone's going to be a caretaker, on so many levels, not just a maternal or feminine energy caretaker. It's like we're care caretakers of our family, We’re caretakers of our land, we're caretakers of each other, we're all stewards of our ecosystem, we're all caretakers of we're all that is kind of the group, that mentality that we need to really tap into more and move into.

Tamu McPherson:

Definitely. And when I was thinking about denying, having a child and I was just think this thinking like you're right, the fact that when these soul pacts are made and children decide to come here and meet their parents - 

Sophia Li:

Yeah. They choose you as - 

Tamu McPherson:

Their mom. And like I was even thinking about the implications of us as humans deciding that we're not going to have children. How that's changing the universe on a cosmic level, but that's a different day.

Sophia Li:

That's a whole different… I believe that completely. And we chose this life. Sustainability is spirituality. That's a huge Buddhist, eastern indigenous concept that has been separated through colonialism and a few different things. But sustainability, the ultimate sustainability, is understanding spirituality. It's this equilibrium we live with all other things. It's this symbiotic relationship we have.

Tamu McPherson:

I wish a lot of more of us were able to tap into the message to meet people who, because I know spiritual people that may even miss that point. We were chatting before about how there's a Chinese population in Jamaica and though I haven't studied cuisine there and the influences of cuisine, I strongly believe that a lot of our cuisine is - our practice, our traditions, our cuisine and the traditions related to them - are strongly influenced by Chinese culture. We're talking about the sustainability of the way we eat. And the fact is that we don't waste any food. We eat every single part of whatever it is that we're eating, and there's no pretty fruit. We're eating everything. My grandfather will literally cut away, cut away, cut away until the fruit is finished. There's just none of that.

Sophia Li:

Yes. My mom eats watermelon rinds.

Tamu McPherson:

I live in Italy so that stands true for Italians as well, because so much of the rind is used in food in preparation. It's simple. My point is that it's more simple than one would think.

Sophia Li:

And it's very innate, actually. We forgot where we came from like this, like sustainability is in this radical idea. It's actually how humanity has lived for eons before the industrial revolution started. And single use plastic were only introduced in the nineties. So that's in my lifetime itself.  I feel like sustainability is very innate. That was part of our culture. That's how we lived off the land. We knew we had to use everything because maybe that was the only time we would be able to hunt, or the only time we could gather food. Like how else could we extend the life shelf of this. I feel like when people say like you have to be vegan and or all of these current quote unquote “solutions” are actually just solutions for the modern day climate crisis.

Veganism is a solution to mass farming, but it's not a solution for the entirety of humanity. Indigenous communities aren't vegan, and they've lived in equilibrium with nature for hundreds of thousands of years. So I think we have to be careful with our words and how we go about talking about that. because it's like, are we talking about for now or are we talking about how we've always lived? Is this a solution for the current climate crisis? Because even if everyone turned vegan, but we still have mass farming and it was for corn starch and different things, the climate crisis will still exist. 

We have about six years. There's never a perfect blanket solution to the climate crisis.

Tamu McPherson:

And do you think that being more flexible in approaching a solution is something that we need more than being so rigid in saying it has to be this way or else we're gonna meet this the end, the exploration date?

Sophia Li:

Yeah, I think it's one understanding. There's so much nuance. Sustainability is a spectrum. There's never gonna be that one perfect solution like carbon credits or veganism or zero waste or whatever it is there. None of that is going to be like the glorious solution that's gonna fix the climate crisis. It's a bit of all of the above and it's a bit nuanced. For example, like everyone thinks of electrical vehicles. I believe in renewable energy and EVs and electrical vehicles. That's gonna be the next wave of cars and transportation. But if everyone in Europe had an electrical vehicle, we would deplete the earth's lithium entirely.

Tamu McPherson:

We would destabilize the whole -

Sophia Li:

Areas natural resources, and also the global south usually would be tapped into for those natural resources and again, receive the most impact from that. So there are these solutions that exist, but they're all very nuanced. 

Tamu McPherson:

I've had the pleasure of talking to you and learning about your family and learning about your mother and learning about the way she navigates the world and all of her fabulous quirkiness - I call it quirkiness, but remember I'm inducting myself into her fan club.

Sophia Li:

Shout out to Jenny Ma!

Tamu McPherson:

Do you think that your experience as a child growing up, do you think that your community experience, do you think that your ancestral experience has prepared you to really accept your particular lane of climate issue, advocating? Do you think it's something that was built into your DNA, built into your psyche because of your past?

Sophia Li:

Yeah. 110% entirely, wholly. Yes. I credit all my family, my upbringing, my ancestors, their ideologies. On my dad's side, we have a long line of Buddhisst. His great grandfather was this incredible Buddhist leader, my grandfather and grandparents. They, our Buddhist, every summer we would visit them between the ages of and two and four. I lived in China with my grandparents. The Buddhist ideology is very much just living in symbiosis with every living thing. They're very spiritual. And then my dad ended up being a scientist, but he's also very spiritual. Like, he uses data, but he's also very spiritual. And I think that's how I approach the climate crisis a lot. And when my parents were immigrants into the US they were both students in school. Sustainability was a necessity. Everything that they did in life was just a necessity, because they were immigrants. And I think anyone with immigrant parents, or has grown up as first, second generation understands that was just the norm. I didn't think anything of it. I thought every household grew up like that.

Tamu McPherson:

As women go in our lives, my mom is a huge inspiration to me because she really is a pragmatic person who was able to work with very little, but create a very happy and stable life for us. And I think that she's really blessed because she didn't have a lot of information when I was growing up, but somehow she was always able to find the right resource. I don't know how she would do it. For a while my mom worked as a coder. This is in the late seventies, eighties. 

Sophia Li:

Ahead of the game. 

Tamu McPherson:

But she moved through life because of necessity and problem solving. Like, how am I gonna solve this problem? And it just always worked out for her. Like she truly was able to really surpass a lot of obstacles because of the grace of others and the generosity and the kindness of others. But my mom is a very calm, gentle - no, well, she's not very gentle, but she's a calm, generous, caring person. And I think she attracts that back into her life. So she's a very, very splendid woman. And she's, she's awesome. And she's funny and she's quite a character. 

Sophia Li:

Has soft power.

Tamu McPherson:

She has soft power. But with age it's gotten kind of spiky. I'm not joking. I'm not joking, but I would say my mom is not a pushover. She's the sweetest woman ever. But she was never a pushover. And she was not at all ever concerned about exerting hard power. Like, that wasn't her issue. You have to drive me there. I'm a little different, you really have to push me. She could turn it on, but it was sparingly. She knew when to use her hard power and she would use it to defend herself. Defend my aunt who is the loud one, the one that's in your face, who would get into the problems. And then my mom was the younger one who would have to solve the issues. So she's a problem solver. That's what it is. 

Sophia Li:

Lovely. Moms are the ultimate problem solvers.

Tamu McPherson:

Can you please explain Web3 to me?  It's obviously a hot topic and as women, we are the foundation of society, we are required to really sustain and prop up our communities. We are required to make ends meet. If we're invited to the table when it comes to finance jobs, we're not usually given a voice when we're there. But I think Web3 is gonna change this for us. And can you just give us an idea of how that's gonna happen? 

Sophia Li:

So again, because I am such a futurist, I always look to the future and, and what solutions are happening. And oftentimes new technology is villain-y because it's new, it's scary, it's unknown, which I get. Like the internet, there were headlines all the time, the internet's a scam. No one believed in the internet because it was a new technology at that point. Web3 is basically the third iteration of the internet. So Web1 was all about reading. Web2 is read and write, like social media. And Web3 is read, write, and own. So with Web3, everyone has ownership, we will move into an ownership economy. And if you look at what's happening right now, and Web2, do we have ownership of the platforms?

You were probably one of the first users of Instagram. You're probably one of the first people to have a lifestyle blog. And did you get any ownership of said platforms? No. And Web3, that would be different. You will have that. The blockchain, everything is decentralized. So you have your own ownership. And instead of, we were talking about this before, instead of making content that will go viral because it satisfies some algorithm, The algorithm doesn even matter because the algorithm is controlled by very few specific platforms and engineers. Which again, all the, mostly those engineers are male. The algorithm leaves and the ownership comes. Your content won't go viral because of the algorithm, but because of the substance of the content itself. And in the ownership economy in Web3, I believe that things will go viral more, but to a lesser extent because some a platform's pushing it, if that makes sense.

I think there's a hunger, a desire for our mental health. I think that the creator economy, the ownership economy, all of that is going to completely shift. So how women will be involved is that - well, one, I do have to say that the technology of blockchain is decentralized. It was always meant to be built that way. The white paper that Satoshi wrote, for Bitcoin, it was all about decentralization. And that's the reason why they, whoever Satoshi was who wrote the white paper for Bitcoin, decided not to put their name on it. That's a collective. Okay, so who Satoshi is, no one knows.

Blockchain itself, the technology is decentralized, but everything else right now in the Web3 space is still mostly centralized. The wealth is centralized, the people involved are very centralized. And again, it's like white males, the wealth is also very centralized in this community. And so, and for us to really tap into a decentralized space, which is what Web3 is supposed to represent, that's the ethos of it, is to infiltrate from within and bring as many different people as we can. Because right now we're building Web3, right now it doesn't technically exist. You might hear it all the time, it's like a buzzword, a trend you, but Web3 doesn't exist. We understand the ethos and the foundation of it, but everyone's co-creating it right now. And that's the thing is that  it's truly a co-creation. These centralized platforms of the Googles and Amazons and Facebooks of the world will dominate it.

It's truly meant to be a co-creation, all decentralized. I think the most important thing is to bring as many people in right now to be like, let's build this new world together. Let's create this future together. Let's not be scared of this new technology. And the more we use technology, the better it gets. The Internet had so much energy usage at the beginning, now we have proof of work, proof of stake, all these mechanisms that it just keeps getting smarter and less energy efficient. It's just becoming more and more evolved by the day. And I think as many people as we can to bring in marginalized communities, females, people of color that's super important because it's like a co-creation. It's like if we were getting ingredients for a meal and right now in the current systems, it would be like we have a finished dish and then they're like, Oh, but we need some representation, we need some diversity. And then you add a bunch of just like a bunch of ingredients on top of it, but it's not cooked in. Yeah. And with Web3, it's like we can decide which ingredients are gonna actually be cooked and baked into the dish.

Tamu McPherson:

As a female entrepreneur, how should I lean into this possibility? Should I be community building with like-minded women and trying to fully grasp what this future could look like, is that how I should lean in right now? Because I also know the power of community here and the power of word of mouth and the power of having these conversations to understand what our ownership stake could look like, should look like in an environment like this. Because I feel that many of us who arrive afterwards, that technological language barrier that we might experience. And I'm speaking as a social media and as a digital art originator. Like I'm one would think I would be even more tech savvy, but I'm not, it's always a surprise when I talk to people and I'm like, you can't even read my phone. Like, they're like, what's wrong with you? Or like the fact that I just got an Apple 13X for whatever, and people are always so shocked about me and I know that like other women in my generation, I have friends going crazy about NFTs now, not three years ago. And I have other friends who are so far ahead. How can I get my community of women to pay attention to understand the value proposition for us being ahead intentionally?

Sophia Li:

Well one, it's to bring them on to the technology in the first place. And yes, it's technology, but if you think about Web3 or the Metaverse, everything is interconnected. And the most sophisticated technology in the world is actually nature. So if we can have people understand that Web3 is just an iteration of what we already know.

Tamu McPherson:

We just, can we, you're not supposed to cheers with water, but like we just need -

Sophia Li:

 -a snap.

Tamu McPherson:

How perfect is mother nature.

Sophia Li:

Well, if you look at all the ecosystems, if you look at the mycelium network and how trees communicate and different ecosystems, it's gorgeous how things communicate together. That is the most advanced technology we know.

But we are nature too. We're not above anything, we are nature. So I think bringing people on board first, because they look at technology and they're like, Oh, but what is that gonna do? Of course there's gonna be a whole spectrum. There's such good happening, there's such darkness happening. But we choose light. We choose light in this Web3 space, and it's going to happen whether we like it or not, and it's gonna happen in our lifetimes. And to bring in your community of females, I would have to say it's a regenerative economy. Females are always, always the last or always left behind when it comes to investments, equity, any realm of new advancements in technology.

Not in the Web3 space. Everything that Web3 is meant to be in, in its purest form is what females are already practicing. Community collectivism, care taking, where everyone has an equal say, everyone has a seat at the table. These are the  ideologies that females very innately practice day in and day out. So I would say bring them in by showing them that it's go beyond the NFTs, go beyond the cryptocurrencies. What is this ideology that we believe in? How does it align with our values? And then how can we see that happening? Things like a regenerative economy, those ideologies are things that females have been pushing for for centuries.

Tamu McPherson:

That's so interesting, because I've had conversations with my friends and with the conversation that I've had around NFTs, it's like, oh, you can buy this and you can resell this or the value is gonna go up immediately. And I feel like it's driven by that kind of conversation. Whereas if I were to explain to a collective group of friends, I feel like this is more my language. And like you were saying, we're borrowing the earth from our children. It feels very comforting.

It feels very comforting to know that that is something that I can contribute to, I was using the internet in the late nineties. So I've seen a lot of iterations, but it will be really remarkable if that is a place that we can head. And I think it also will solve a lot of the issues that we're experiencing in this current form. 

Sophia Li:

Yes,

Tamu McPherson:

So many levels. 

Sophia Li:

Yes. Every industry would be touched by it. Yeah. And that, and that quote was an indigenous community quote. 

Tamu McPherson:

Well, I love it. I mean, we're not going to be appropriate, but I feel like t-shirts need to be made. I feel like Twitter needs to be blown up. I feel like, Oh, the café needs -

Sophia Li:

To have it written on the wall….

Tamu McPherson:

I wanted to talk about your work with the Stop Asian Hate Movement. You're super vocal. I've been fortunate to work with a lot of my friends or be in conversation with a lot of my friends about the movement. And as a woman of color, I've been trying to pay a lot of attention and to understand how you feel because it's very similar to how I've felt with regards to hate and racism. Can you talk about your experience? Can you talk about what drives you in your advocacy and can you talk about some of the energy that we need to as allies continue to, to contribute to address the issue that is only, seems to be only getting worse. We've had like, even recent episodes of violence. Can you just speak to that?

Sophia Li:

Well, I want to first say that the racism you experience and the racism I experience, they're all very personal experiences, but they're all rooted in the same systems of oppression. People are very triggered by this word, but it's all white supremacy. And those are the systems that fuel racism in every marginalized community. So it's the same hate that we experience in different lived experiences. It's not Black Lives Matter and then Stop Asian hate. Like, these are the same foundational roots. They're the same systems of oppression that have manifested into our society in different ways.  A lot of times these movements are isolated as one thing and then another. But it's, it's all interconnected. It's all the same system. Oppressing nature are the same systems, oppressing, marginalized communities. Like we're all like my freedom is your freedom, your right to just walk onto a subway or your right to just go home safely… it impacts everyone.

Your safety is my safety. That's the thing that I talk a lot about is how interconnected all of our fights are, and how they're all rooted in the same systems. Not to look at an isolated case and just be like, that person needs to go to jail for life and good, we're done. Because they're the repeating patterns, and whether it's mental health or whether it's upbringing or social economic backgrounds, they're all the same patterns. And that's, that's when we can see very clearly that this is like a very systemic problem.

Tamu McPherson:

Two years have passed now since the, I would say the, the onset of the latest social justice revolution. Because that's why I call them lately, they revolve, they come around again. And then, I think the most well known incident of violence was in Georgia. Right? So that's like, we're two years out. 

Momentum fades. And the important thing is that I personally don't want to walk away and forget the mission that we're on. We're on a mission to bring down the walls of white supremacy. And we can say it here and we can say it loud. It is, what is it? It's white supremacy. I want to continue being an ally. I want to continue to support my Asian friends in every way possible. I want to continue a conversation where absolutely we emphasize that the enemy is one and the same. And the enemy uses the tool to keep us separated, and to feel isolated. What else can I do? What else can we do together to make sure that six months from now, when we don't see a mask anymore or we're not thinking about the movement, we're not thinking about the fight or something hasn't happened in the six month period, so we're not on alert or the news is onto something else.

Because that's what always happens. The news isn't picking it up. Because they're talking about Elon Musk and Twitter. What can we do to make sure that our collective fight is still being nurtured and fueled and we're chipping away or breaking down the walls of white supremacy in general?

Sophia Li:

First off, I just have to say thank you because when everything started happening with Stop Asian Hate, it was actually my Black female friends who were always, always consistently there. Always. They were always the ones checking in, always the one being like, How are we doing? Because they know, they know that lived experience the Asian American community has to thank the Black American community for the Asian American movement, Asian American, that that phrase in itself was created after the Black movement because Asian Americans want to have a phrase that identifies themselves as a cohort separate of just Asian. They were not just Asian, they were Asian American. And that happened because of the Black American movement in the sixties. So that's like a huge part of how I identify is, is all credited towards the Black American movement and how we can continue working on this and making this not just a moment but a movement.

You're never going to forget that. You are a Black Jamaican American and I am a Chinese American. Like this is so ingrained, embedded in us and it's more about checking in with each other. The reason why I say this is a lot of my white friends are like, Oh, but if I'm checking in, am I reminding you of hardships? And it's like, yeah, but we never forget about our identity. That's not anything that we bypass. Making sure that we continuously speak up about this. I feel like a lot of people are quite annoyed that maybe I keep talking about this even when  it's not on the news or Asian hate crime hasn't happened recently, but this is, this is ongoing. And because everyone has compassion fatigue. It's like, oh, but that movement's over. And that's the point: it's never over.

Tamu McPherson:

 - because we're far off. 

Sophia Li:

We're far, far, far off, joining forces because again, each of our movements are all fighting the same enemy. So joining forces as much as possible and in all the ways.

Tamu McPherson:

That's the best that we - that's the only thing that we do.

Sophia Li:

Only thing we do. The only thing we are like, when we say even the words like minority vs. majority, like that's completely scientifically inaccurate. People of color are the majority. So yeah, even just the language we use, the way we present ourselves, the way we align forces, the way we show up, the way we check our own subconscious biases that internal work is really important for sure.

Tamu McPherson:

Anja and I have been talking about creating these illusions and I think that the one thing that white supremacy is propped up on is this great illusion and it functions on so many levels because we buy into it. Like we buy into it even as the oppressed. Yeah. And so I think if we become more mindful and if we become a more unified body, I think that we can escape that illusion.

Sophia Li:

It's all smoke mirrors.

Tamu McPherson:

And it has to be to keep us oppressed.

Sophia Li:

So then we are just like, Oh, I can't fight for this movement because I'm just trying to make ends meet. I'm just working. I'm just this. And it's like, let's shed all of that. Those are all meant to keep us just doing instead of being.

Tamu McPherson:

So moving on to being, I think that you have a huge respect and a huge I would say appreciation for your being. You understand how you can maintain your strength, because you are fighting a lot, you’re championing a lot of battles with the work that you do. I admire the boundaries that you set, and how you preserve your being and yourself so that you can give more. Can you just tell us about how you have cultivated your brand of preservation? 

Sophia Li:

Well it wasn't always like this. I was very much just going through the motions. A passive participant in life. And I think you get a lot of signs that that's not working out for you. You get sick a lot. I was on a plane that caught fire. There's a lot of different signs that happen. And you're like, Okay, things need to change in my life. And that is an ongoing journey. In my late twenties I realize, this isn't the lifestyle that I want to live. This isn't aligned with my values, this isn't aligned with my upbringing. This isn't aligned with my ancestral upbringing and what they've bestowed upon me. And it's first recognizing when you feel most safe and when you feel safe and at home.

I mean that in a more metaphysical sense than like, I'm in the safety of my own home. It's a mental and spiritual moment. When you feel safe in your own body, no one can penetrate those boundaries or that bubble. So then you make, you are proactively saying, okay, I feel safer when I know I'm fully present. That's a huge thing for me, is presence. So if I'm at dinner with you, if I'm with you, I'm fully here. I'm not on my phone, I'm not not anywhere else. I'm fully here. I know I feel safe when I don't have a lot of notifications happening or people telling me things are urgent.

Tamu McPherson:

You're like the Do Not Disturb Queen.

Sophia Li:

Because someone else's emergency and urgency isn’t your own urgency.  I have a friend who has the best out of office ever. He goes, If this is urgent, please take a deep breath. Because many things in life are not. And I love that because it's like, what is actually urgent? Like, what is society telling us? And if it's email, then it's probably not truly urgent if it's by email. So yeah, a lot of this self-preservation really just had to come with when I feel most at home within my own body. Like, I don't feel at my best unless I'm fully present, unless I'm fully rested. Unless I can show up in X, Y, Z.

And that doesn't mean there's ebbs and flows where I'm totally spinning and then I come back to it. I think it's understanding where your level of homeostasis is, and where can you come back to that level of safety and homeostasis and what that means for you and for each person. That's very different. And I always thought I was an extrovert because I love socializing and loving with people and it's still true. I may be an extrovert, but I also very much need to recharge on my own and have a level. And I also view time differently. Like time isn't the same for me and I like to flow through life instead of being like a rigid, rigid routine. And so whatever that is for you, I think it's like first identifying those levels of safe safety and homeostasis and then like abiding by. And that is, that is like your constitution. Like I'm going abide by this constitution and rules - 

Tamu McPherson:

 - as in the constitution?

Sophia Li:

Or not the constitution but like your, your own constitution. Like we need to figure out, we all need to identify our own constitution.

Tamu McPherson:

What constitutes us versus a constitution. 

Sophia Li:

What constitutes your homeostasis? Identify and then put into action. How do you self preserve?

Tamu McPherson:

I don't.

Sophia Li:

Yes you do.

Tamu McPherson:

So actually no. My healer said that I really need to find a talisman or some kind of symbol that helps me filter, because I don't filter. Like she's like, I'm a constant giving, giving, giving. But she says I need to put down a filter and not do that. Because I'm also giving a lot and I'm also taking a lot. And she said it's actually kind of problematic. But I, the one thing I know, I think that the mind and the inner being really know and they can step in for you sometimes because I see it happening that a part of me that I don't always access takes over sometimes. And I understand what's going on. Like it's a checking out, but it's not, it's not I'm still, things are still happening. Work is still like going, but I'm kind of checking out and self preserving. But it's something that I can't control. Like it's something that's happening but it's, it's something else. And I think it's that part of me that steps in every time.

Sophia Li:

Well it's because we live in an attention economy now. And so every time you check your phone you get dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. And then when you go and do something else, like have a two hour long lunch or dinner with your friend, you're like, I'm not getting any immediate dopamine. This doesn't feel as good. So then we check our phones during when we're sharing a meal, et cetera. But we have prioritized short term dopamine for the long term. And that's truly when joy and play and contentment with life happens. It's like when we have those long terms and we all experienced that, that flow. So how can we get back to that level of living? And I think I was always like a bit of a rebel. Like I was never good in school in San When,

Tamu McPherson:

What is your birthday?

Sophia Li:

August 4th.

Tamu McPherson:

You're a Leo also the,

Sophia Li:

You're Leo?

Tamu McPherson:

Yeah. And my mother is a Leo. My son is a Leo.

Sophia Li:

Oh my god. Yes, of course. What's your birthday? July 30th.

Tamu McPherson:

Oh.

Sophia Li:

Oh my god. No one feels every sense like my mom. Yes. Guess why? Okay. Makes sense. Wait, but are you a rebel? You like a troublemaker?

Tamu McPherson:

I'm a Leo with Virgo, so I am at internal conflict all day long, because I’m a total rebel and then someone who wants to… Well you saw how I want to control.

Sophia Li:

Okay. It makes sense. Instead of like a corporation. Yeah. That makes sense. But I think rebels and troublemakers and people who were never just like, okay with living by the system or what society tells us to do, like me. So self-preservation. Honestly, a lot of the times, not doing my own thing was kind of to show myself that I still have that inside of me. I dictate my own words. That's

Tamu McPherson:

The other thing too that happens, right? You had like that, that conversation that you have with your inner being, it Well, I feel like it's what keeps you on the your straight and narrow your, your path.

Sophia Li:

And oftentimes it's your inner child.

Tamu McPherson:

That's what I was telling you about that other thing, kind of like pulling me out. And it's gotten to the point, and I don't know if it's age and it's gotten to the point that I'm more present than I think. What happens is I physically can't do all the scrolling Like, it just won’t happen. 

Sophia Li:

It just doesn't satisfy you as much anymore. 

Tamu McPherson:

It doesn't happen. And it keeps me there.

Sophia Li:

Yes. Because that is the illusion. Once we realize, look, oh wait, this is an illusion. Like I actually don't enjoy doing this. Do you ever remember to truly retain a lot of information that you see on these platforms? Compared to reading a book. Once you realize it's an illusion, then you can start moving forward in other ways.